Overleg gebruiker:89.79.88.109: verschil tussen versies
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* ''I've also read that WikiWoordenboek does not use length mark anywhere for simplicity. It's probably on one of the IPA pages.'' That would not make any sense. Especially because Dutch has "hoer" vs. "hoed" (/hu:r/ vs. /hut/~/hud/). Also, especially in the south, it is very common to have unstressed "long" vowels being short. Compare: "teelt" (/te:lt/) and "telefoon" (/tele'fo:n/~/telə'fo:n/). |
* ''I've also read that WikiWoordenboek does not use length mark anywhere for simplicity. It's probably on one of the IPA pages.'' That would not make any sense. Especially because Dutch has "hoer" vs. "hoed" (/hu:r/ vs. /hut/~/hud/). Also, especially in the south, it is very common to have unstressed "long" vowels being short. Compare: "teelt" (/te:lt/) and "telefoon" (/tele'fo:n/~/telə'fo:n/). |
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* About the //-s. Indeed, that's why we do not use f.e. /ʁoʊ̯stəj/ for /ro:stər/ ("rooster" being typically pronounced "ghowstej" by Northern Dutchies). But, we would like to have a dictionary which is detailed enough to show the most important differences between the local forms. The vowel contrast between long and short in Northern Dutch is primarily the vowel quality. In Southern Dutch, the actual length is way more important. Therefore, /:/ may be ommitted for Northern Dutch, but not for Southern Dutch :) --[[Gebruiker:Ooswesthoesbes|Ooswesthoesbes]] ([[Overleg gebruiker:Ooswesthoesbes|overleg]]) 2 sep 2012 16:17 (CEST) |
* About the //-s. Indeed, that's why we do not use f.e. /ʁoʊ̯stəj/ for /ro:stər/ ("rooster" being typically pronounced "ghowstej" by Northern Dutchies). But, we would like to have a dictionary which is detailed enough to show the most important differences between the local forms. The vowel contrast between long and short in Northern Dutch is primarily the vowel quality. In Southern Dutch, the actual length is way more important. Therefore, /:/ may be ommitted for Northern Dutch, but not for Southern Dutch :) --[[Gebruiker:Ooswesthoesbes|Ooswesthoesbes]] ([[Overleg gebruiker:Ooswesthoesbes|overleg]]) 2 sep 2012 16:17 (CEST) |
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Yes, you are right. You cite a page which was created before we added Southern Dutch pronunciations. I'll clarify it so other people won't run into the same problems :) --[[Gebruiker:Ooswesthoesbes|Ooswesthoesbes]] ([[Overleg gebruiker:Ooswesthoesbes|overleg]]) 2 sep 2012 18:21 (CEST) |
Versie van 2 sep 2012 17:21
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Curious (overleg) 28 aug 2012 23:31 (CEST)
A few remarks
Thank you for your help in our Dutch IPA section! I'm not sure whether you can speak Dutch, considering your edit summaries are in English, but I did some corrections on the Flemish and Limburgish IPA's. Take a look at loopvogel for example:
- In Flemish "-l" is usually not pronounced different in initial and last position.
- In Flemish and Limburgish "a(a)", "e(e)", "eu", "o(o)", "u(u)" are always pronounced long, so /aː/, /eː/, /øː/ etc. This should be indicated in IPA, as a lot of speakers actually pronounce the short variants as /a/, /e/, /o/, /y/ instead of /ɑ/, /ɛ/, /ɔ/, /ʏ/.
- And last, in Limburgish, it is relatively uncommon (though not unusual) to devoice /z/, /ʒ/, /v/, /ɣ/ in initial position. Instead, it's more common to change a voiceless end consonant into a voiced one, so "op de grond": /ˌɔb.də.ˈɣrɔnd/ in Limburgish vs. /ˌɔp.tə.ˈχrɔnt/ in Northern Dutch. That's also why it should be /ˈkɛrgœːl/ :)
I hope you can do something with these tips! :) --Ooswesthoesbes (overleg) 1 sep 2012 10:35 (CEST)
Well, I'm more used to Limburgish people butchering Dutch and German than the other way round, but right :P
- /e/ for /ɛ/ is very common Limburgish Dutch, though most would use /æ/, and /o/ is standard before nasals and several sounds (like liquids). /y/ for /ʏ/ is indeed less common and /œ/ would be more typical indeed.
- I've also read that WikiWoordenboek does not use length mark anywhere for simplicity. It's probably on one of the IPA pages. That would not make any sense. Especially because Dutch has "hoer" vs. "hoed" (/hu:r/ vs. /hut/~/hud/). Also, especially in the south, it is very common to have unstressed "long" vowels being short. Compare: "teelt" (/te:lt/) and "telefoon" (/tele'fo:n/~/telə'fo:n/).
- About the //-s. Indeed, that's why we do not use f.e. /ʁoʊ̯stəj/ for /ro:stər/ ("rooster" being typically pronounced "ghowstej" by Northern Dutchies). But, we would like to have a dictionary which is detailed enough to show the most important differences between the local forms. The vowel contrast between long and short in Northern Dutch is primarily the vowel quality. In Southern Dutch, the actual length is way more important. Therefore, /:/ may be ommitted for Northern Dutch, but not for Southern Dutch :) --Ooswesthoesbes (overleg) 2 sep 2012 16:17 (CEST)
Yes, you are right. You cite a page which was created before we added Southern Dutch pronunciations. I'll clarify it so other people won't run into the same problems :) --Ooswesthoesbes (overleg) 2 sep 2012 18:21 (CEST)