Overleg gebruiker:Proabivouac

Beste Proabivouac, van harte welkom op het Nederlandstalige WikiWoordenboek! Hartelijk dank voor uw medewerking aan dit project dat, zoals u waarschijnlijk wel weet, alle woorden in alle talen voor iedereen vrij en online toegankelijk wil maken. Uw bijdragen daaraan zien we met grote belangstelling tegemoet. Het Nederlandstalige WikiWoordenboek is een door iedereen vrij te bewerken woordenboek dat inmiddels 898.531 artikelen telt. Gun uzelf even tijd voor de tips in dit venster en begin daarna pas met het bewerken van uw eerste artikelen. Géén van die richtlijnen heeft kracht van wet, want WikiWoordenboek is en blijft natuurlijk vóór alles steeds vrij bewerkbaar. Een beetje houvast voordat u in het diepe springt kan natuurlijk nooit kwaad. Hoe leer ik dit eigenlijk? Is het niet vreselijk ingewikkeld? Enkele tips om het aanmaken van nieuwe pagina's simpel te maken. Hulp Overzicht van pagina's voor hulp en ondersteuning. Hoe u mee kunt doen met WikiWoordenboek Informatie over hoe u uw deel aan WikiWoordenboek kunt bijdragen. Helpdesk Voor al uw vragen over WikiWoordenboek. Conventies Opmaakafspraken voor artikelen. De kroeg Overleggen met andere WikiWoordenboek-gebruikers. Deze pagina, die nu op uw scherm staat, is trouwens uw persoonlijke overlegpagina; de plaats waar u berichten van andere WikiWoordenboekers ontvangt en beantwoordt. Iedere gebruiker heeft zo'n pagina. Wilt u een bericht voor iemand anders achterlaten, dan doet u dat dus op zijn of haar overlegpagina. Sluit uw bijdragen altijd af met vier tildes, dus zo: ~~~~. Een druk op de handtekeningknop heeft hetzelfde effect: uw bericht wordt automatisch ondertekend met uw gebruikersnaam en de datum en tijd waarop u uw boodschap voltooide. Versturen doet u met "Pagina opslaan". If your knowledge of our language is limited, you are nonetheless welcome of course! We appreciate your contributions. This message in other languages: English, français, Deutsch.

Dutch spelling

The Dutch spelling has changed more than once over the last hundred years, and the entire system of case declensions on nouns has been abandoned (which had happened in normal speech hundreds of years earlier). The 1946/47-change was a rather drastic one, but the spelling also changed for example in 1995 and 2005, as you probably now by now :) Articles like uitheemsch are very welcome, as are articles with current spellings. You are not the only person who works on this project that doesn't speak Dutch ,and as long as you don't mind being corrected in case you fail to follow an (un-)written rule or make a language mistake..., all help is welcome . If you need any help or have questions or things you think should be discussed, just ask one of the active contributors or go to the kroeg (pub). Groeten GRUNNEN ^OVERLEG 18 aug 2009 13:57 (CEST)

In fact we would love to see some entries in Papoea languages. Something else: I do not know proa, but there is a word prouw with the same meaning. Are you sure it is not prao in Portugese spelling? Jcwf 18 aug 2009 14:42 (CEST) Actually the spelling is prauw.

A proa on the beach and the expedition ship 'Zeemeeuw' on the roa... - Collectie stichting Nationaal Museum van Wereldculturen - TM-60010064

Yes, these are all the same word. Drabbe gives "prauw", for example, while "Proa•bivouac" is from the equally Dutch Holle lists. Perhaps "prauw" is the appropriate contemporary Dutch spelling?Proabivouac 18 aug 2009 15:21 (CEST)

Prauw is pretty old

Usually the Dutch spelling goes form inheems to uitheems, like aktief -> actief. --Ooswesthoesbes 18 aug 2009 15:29 (CEST)

That's not true Ooswesthoesbes, you know that. Only the formaly "toegestane" spellingvariants are prohibited now, which makes a lot of "inheemse" spellings "wrong". But the general tendency is for words to slowly be nativised, both in pronunciation ánd spelling. Btw, I do know the word prauw, but I have never heard of prao/proa. Groeten GRUNNEN ^OVERLEG 18 aug 2009 15:39 (CEST)

Maybe it should be redirected then? From the English WP:[1] All I'd say is that 1) an entry should exist and that 2) it should be reachable from all these spellings. I'm not qualified to choose the right master title!Proabivouac 18 aug 2009 15:45 (CEST)

I've never heard of both, but maybe that's because the only waters we have in Limburg are little becks, the Maas and the Roer and I've never been to a country further away than Slovakia :) At least I'd say we don't use any redirects, because "proa" or "prauw" might exist in other languages than Dutch too. --Ooswesthoesbes 18 aug 2009 15:48 (CEST)

We could list them as alternative spellings in the main entry and make minor pages describing pronunciation, etymology and syllable structure, and give a definition and state it's an alternative spelling of prauw (which I think should be considered the most basic form). Groeten GRUNNEN ^OVERLEG 18 aug 2009 15:57 (CEST)

I agree with Grunnen. :) --Ooswesthoesbes 18 aug 2009 16:01 (CEST)

I think we'd better check if the spelling "proa" has ever been official in Dutch. If so, we could make an "old spelling" page. Otherwise, I'd suggest to be careful using terms like "alternative spelling", since the only possible alternative at the moment is "prauw" (as far as I know). Wikibelgiaan 18 aug 2009 16:05 (CEST)

Perhaps then we could use something like (obsolete, unofficial), and explain what exactly we mean with that under -note-. Does anyone know how to find this information? Groeten Grunnen

According to my very modern "Koenen" dictionary of 1966 "prauw" exists, "proa"/"prao" not. --Ooswesthoesbes 18 aug 2009 16:12 (CEST)

I find the same thing in my "Van Dale" (2002). Grunnen

The Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal already calls the lemma "prauw", but it mentions the obsolete spellings: parahoe, parao, praauw. Wikibelgiaan 18 aug 2009 16:17 (CEST)

I think proa is another English misspelling for prao just like what happened to Krakatau => Cracatao ==> Cracatoa. I think we should make proa an English lemma.

I agree. It seems to be impossible to find any Dutch references to "proa". Wikibelgiaan 18 aug 2009 16:48 (CEST)

I also agree with changing the page to English and creating prauw. --Ooswesthoesbes 18 aug 2009 17:07 (CEST)

I'm sorry to have troubled you all with my ignorance.Proabivouac 18 aug 2009 23:20 (CEST)

??? How do you mean?? This is fun, keep it coming. Jcwf 18 aug 2009 23:55 (CEST)

K, how's this: klapper.Proabivouac 19 aug 2009 00:19 (CEST)

And this: vuurvlieg.Proabivouac 19 aug 2009 01:06 (CEST)

User page

I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, but how about creating a userpage. Not that you got to tell us your live's story of course :) but stating what you like to achieve here and why you are contributing could help less frequent users, and new ones, to get an impression of what's going on. And it would turn the red links blue, which is of course way more important ;) Don't feel pressed however, for that's not the way I mean this. Groeten GRUNNEN ^OVERLEG 19 aug 2009 11:29 (CEST)

And it also keeps other users from writing on your user page :) --Ooswesthoesbes 19 aug 2009 13:23 (CEST)

Good idea! For now, I'll give it a placeholder while I figure out what to say.Proabivouac 20 aug 2009 07:53 (CEST)

Ok, thank you :) --Ooswesthoesbes 20 aug 2009 07:57 (CEST)

Blushing

Let's get one thing straight. Making people blush is not allowed here. But seriously, thank you for your kind remarks. There is a good measure of selfishness in our tolerance of other languages: it is the only way we can get people like Cadfael (who is German) and yourself to contribute here... We have good reason to be happy with you:

1. Colonial Dutch is pretty much a dead language now and one that was never particularly well documented. The generation that spoke it is either gone or in their ninety's or so. So if you can contribute that you are eminently welcome and I am sure there will always be someone to catch you when you stumble or have questions.
2. Besides we can do with people with a background in linguistics. We're almost all linguistic amateurs here. I'm a chemist e.g. living in the USA who likes to keep his tribal language alive by visiting this language island.

I'd be happy to translate if it is bite size morsels, particularly if it is something that we can elaborate upon here. (Tomorrow I'll have 264 freshmen chemists on my plate, so I cannot offer you much more than that.) It would be nice to see some pages with whatever language is your expertise. 20,000 of them will do I suppose (Just kidding). I realize that there is a wealth of linguistic stuff in colonial Dutch that are now accessible as google scans and it would be wonderful if WikiWoordenboek could help salvage and revitalize that heritage. I often do not feel competent enough to do that although I did dabble a bit in Gajo.

Jcwf 19 aug 2009 15:04 (CEST)

Welcome

Hello Proabivouac,

I would also like to welcome you at the Dutch WikiWoordenboek. You have already made good contributions here! If you have any questions, feel free to ask them on my talk page or on the talk page of another user (like Grunnen, Wikibelgiaan, etc). We're happy to help you. Keep up the good work!

Kind regards, Tvdm 19 aug 2009 21:03 (CEST)

Thank you! I have a few entries in the pipeline…Proabivouac 20 aug 2009 07:51 (CEST)

lo(o)pen

Mijn knowledge of the old spelling is patchy -good riddance!-, but I do remember that sometimes verbs and nouns would have a different spelling, where now it is the same. I believe the plural of the noun loop (barrel of a gun etc) was lopen, but the plural of ik loop was wij loopen. Jcwf 22 aug 2009 08:40 (CEST)